2008-09-16T01:38:32 *** Mark__T has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T04:06:11 *** kgs_away has quit IRC 2008-09-16T05:19:05 *** Mark__T has left #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T05:20:15 *** Mark__T has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T07:59:53 *** bag has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T08:02:55 *** rickd has joined #OpenILS-Evergreen 2008-09-16T08:17:18 *** mrpeters-isl has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T08:17:32 hey everyone....quick question...can Evergreen accept a non-numeric character in the barcodes 2008-09-16T08:26:20 *** kgs_away has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T08:30:08 mrpeters-isl: absolutely 2008-09-16T08:31:42 i assumed so and it worked in the demo, but i just wanted to be sure it would work within our application as well 2008-09-16T08:32:44 *** wlayton has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T08:35:23 *** atheos has quit IRC 2008-09-16T08:54:17 *** rsinger has joined #OpenILS-Evergreen 2008-09-16T09:04:42 *** atheos has joined #OpenILS-Evergreen 2008-09-16T09:12:06 *** phasefx2_ has quit IRC 2008-09-16T09:12:51 *** phasefx2_ has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T09:18:37 *** dbs has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T09:23:41 *** rsinger has quit IRC 2008-09-16T09:30:36 *** mrpeters-isl has quit IRC 2008-09-16T09:36:25 *** wlayton has quit IRC 2008-09-16T09:36:37 *** wlayton has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T09:44:24 *** rsinger has joined #OpenILS-Evergreen 2008-09-16T09:44:30 *** Mark__T has quit IRC 2008-09-16T09:45:19 *** Mark__T has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T10:00:13 *** Mark__T has quit IRC 2008-09-16T11:17:03 *** wlayton has quit IRC 2008-09-16T11:38:55 *** wlayton has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T12:18:08 yay, only 68 duplicate patrons between our 3 systems (and they're all well accounted for, being med students) 2008-09-16T12:20:44 *** wlayton has quit IRC 2008-09-16T12:21:10 *** wlayton has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T13:06:24 *** FluffyCloud has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T13:14:43 moo? 2008-09-16T13:19:08 *** kgs_away is now known as kgs 2008-09-16T13:20:04 anyone home? :) 2008-09-16T13:27:33 some, but taking off for a meeting right now :( 2008-09-16T13:28:22 awh 2008-09-16T13:43:55 *** dbs has quit IRC 2008-09-16T13:46:16 *** dbs has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T13:48:19 Question, when someone cancels a hold, I see that field "Hold Cancel Date/Time" gets modified, but it recorded anywhere on who initiated the cancelled hold? I'm trying to identify cancelled holds by patron/staff 2008-09-16T13:52:00 mew 2008-09-16T14:08:10 FluffyCloud: question? 2008-09-16T14:08:21 yes. 2008-09-16T14:08:32 it's short but may require some time to answer. 2008-09-16T14:08:48 my question is: "so, how does this all, like, Work?" 2008-09-16T14:09:11 Very Carefully 2008-09-16T14:09:27 :) 2008-09-16T14:12:39 i imagine i have more reading to do, but would anyone like to give me an overview of how a small library system with, say, only 6 branches, might work? 2008-09-16T14:13:09 atheos: you might be able to find that info in the logs.. not sure about the audit tables 2008-09-16T14:16:09 anyone have an idea how long entering 1000 books into the system takes? 2008-09-16T14:16:27 or 100 patrons? 2008-09-16T14:17:22 FluffyCloud: manual data entry? 2008-09-16T14:18:05 phasefx: you seem to imply that there are alternatives to manual data entry, what are they? 2008-09-16T14:18:29 FluffyCloud: does the data already exist electronically? Are you migrating an existing system? 2008-09-16T14:18:39 nope, new system. 2008-09-16T14:18:51 working on ye olde card catalogues. 2008-09-16T14:19:20 phasefx, thanks, I'll look in that direction. 2008-09-16T14:19:39 I'd time it.. register a fake patron on demo.gapines.org, double that time, and then multiply by 100 2008-09-16T14:19:49 FluffyCloud, how fast can you type? 2008-09-16T14:19:58 try to enter a catalog a few books on demo.gapines.org, and time it :) multiply by 1000 2008-09-16T14:20:32 phasefx: does everything have to be typed in, or can i just scan the isbn in and have it look everything else up for me? 2008-09-16T14:20:34 time how long it takes to give OCLC your anual budget ;) 2008-09-16T14:20:34 might be possible to OCR paper records, but I bet that could be painful, working out the kinks 2008-09-16T14:21:20 FluffyCloud: you can do ISBN searches against various sources and use their records 2008-09-16T14:21:40 FluffyCloud: you could search for ISBNs in the Library of Congress -- that's available by default, for free -- but the LoC doesn't have everything 2008-09-16T14:22:05 but, is that integrated into this system, or are you suggesting i can do that on the side and then retype it into this system? 2008-09-16T14:22:32 I think there also companies that will do this sort of thing for you (catalog all your books in an electronic format suitable for import into an automation system) 2008-09-16T14:23:20 phasefx: ahh, yes, the system in question talked to at least one such company and was a bit shocked by their pricetag ;) 2008-09-16T14:23:43 you can add more sources than LoC to EG.. you could also use a program like MARC Edit to search multiple sources and download those bib records (and then import those into EG) 2008-09-16T14:24:10 phasefx: there is a bunch of volunteer support in the town though, to solve manual labor problems. 2008-09-16T14:24:11 I think MARC Edit has a z39.50 client, at least. I have seen some free ones that include lots of targets 2008-09-16T14:24:14 FluffyCloud: searching LoC (and any other compatible Z39.50 source) is integrated 2008-09-16T14:24:36 thank you eeevil :) 2008-09-16T14:27:48 anyone have a favorite barcode scanner? :) 2008-09-16T14:29:40 also, do i have the general architecture correct? there's one central server that i'll have to setup and mantain, and then verious staff have clients, kiosks have clients, and it can also be hit using the web? 2008-09-16T14:31:19 would it be useful to have the server software and the database on the same machine? or would they benefit from being seperated and each having the use of their own cpus? 2008-09-16T14:37:54 *** gmcharlt has joined #OpenILS-Evergreen 2008-09-16T14:39:37 FluffyCloud: you can run the whole server stack on a single machine (or virtual machine), or spread it out across multiple servers. Pros and cons for each scenario 2008-09-16T14:40:27 FluffyCloud: the only scanners I've used have been a CueCat (I don't recommend it) and some Metrologic scanner (that worked well) 2008-09-16T14:42:05 *** dbs has quit IRC 2008-09-16T14:45:21 *** dbs has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T14:52:04 newegg agrees with you, by virtue of positive user feedback on more metrologic scanners than any other brand. 2008-09-16T14:55:00 *** rsinger has quit IRC 2008-09-16T15:13:20 *** rsinger has joined #OpenILS-Evergreen 2008-09-16T15:17:44 i may be reading too fast but I took fluffycloud to be intersted in loading data electronically (as well as manually) 2008-09-16T15:24:56 or via z39.50 interface 2008-09-16T15:27:25 *** phase_bb has quit IRC 2008-09-16T15:30:18 i'm with kgs and skmurphy on that (was in meetings and on the phone forever, though) 2008-09-16T15:31:50 *** dbs has quit IRC 2008-09-16T15:32:18 metrologic has a scanner that looks like Eva from WALL-E! http://www.metrologic.com/corporate/products/pos/MS7180/ 2008-09-16T15:33:55 *** dbs has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T15:43:27 *** dbs has quit IRC 2008-09-16T15:44:19 *** eeevil is now known as adrml_akbar 2008-09-16T15:44:32 *** adrml_akbar is now known as eeevil 2008-09-16T15:44:54 *** eeevil is now known as adrml_akbar 2008-09-16T15:46:13 *** adrml_akbar is now known as admrl_akbar 2008-09-16T15:56:59 *** dbs has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T16:03:13 *** phase_bb has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T16:03:42 *** lisppaste6 has quit IRC 2008-09-16T16:03:58 *** lisppaste6 has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T16:13:24 FluffyCloud: you still about? 2008-09-16T16:14:57 *** wlayton has quit IRC 2008-09-16T16:24:17 meep? 2008-09-16T16:25:40 i was away for a bit, i ran out to have a meeting with the director of the public library a town over. 2008-09-16T16:25:47 I was going to tell you about the z39.50 client in Evergreen for importing MARC records, but I saw after I asked that eeevil had answered you. 2008-09-16T16:26:30 Do you have any questions about using z39.50 to import records? You'd have to use it to import them one at a time if you go that route, but it's better than entering MARC records by hand. 2008-09-16T16:27:17 one at a time? well, the books have to be entered one at a time when you slap the barcodes on them, yes? 2008-09-16T16:28:03 wouldn't the process be in-line? you have scanned a new book! ... we don't know what it is! lets go fetch the marc record... your book is "Yeti Hunting" by Flesh Golem, yes/no/maybe? 2008-09-16T16:29:35 yep 2008-09-16T16:39:46 is there a limit on how many digits the barcode can be? 2008-09-16T16:41:11 it can be as small as 1 character; i don't know what the upper limit is 2008-09-16T16:41:20 (or if there is one; i've never exceeded it) 2008-09-16T16:41:30 something absurd, like 4G ;) 2008-09-16T16:41:59 this all runs on postgres, right? 2008-09-16T16:42:18 4294967296 charaacters ;) 2008-09-16T16:42:29 yep, Postgres 2008-09-16T16:54:38 *** lisppaste6 has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T17:00:23 *** lisppaste6 has quit IRC 2008-09-16T17:00:38 *** lisppaste6 has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T17:01:15 is anyone running this in a production environment? 2008-09-16T17:02:00 FluffyCloud: evergreen? 2008-09-16T17:02:19 * FluffyCloud checks the channels name.... "yes, evergreen" 2008-09-16T17:03:12 since sept 2006. http://open-ils.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=faqs:evergreen_faq_1 2008-09-16T17:03:18 see question 4 2008-09-16T17:04:04 berick: which one of those libraries do you run? 2008-09-16T17:05:09 FluffyCloud: most and none at the same time ;) I work with http://esilibrary.com/esi/ 2008-09-16T17:05:53 we provide evergreen services for most of the institutions on that page 2008-09-16T17:06:05 hmm, so you're going to charge me for answers to the questions i have? :) 2008-09-16T17:06:33 FluffyCloud: yeah, i've already hacked your irc client! 2008-09-16T17:06:34 ;) 2008-09-16T17:08:05 er... *checks* no, i don't believe you. 2008-09-16T17:08:52 i'm used to getting this box 'hacked' every few weeks every time a new php vulnerability comes out, i'm pretty good at spotting it by now. 2008-09-16T17:09:18 hahaa 2008-09-16T17:09:41 yeah, i'm just bein' silly 2008-09-16T17:09:50 ^_^ 2008-09-16T17:09:58 so how much do you cost? 2008-09-16T17:10:53 FluffyCloud: if you're interested, i'd recommend sending a note to sales@esilibrary.com. 2008-09-16T17:11:00 or info@ 2008-09-16T17:11:32 not to dodge the question, it's just more complicated than a number 2008-09-16T17:11:39 sigh, i know. 2008-09-16T17:11:57 any number you say is likely to be different once your sales team gets a hold of it. ;) 2008-09-16T17:12:04 If you're feeling adventurous, you could try setting up a test intance yourself 2008-09-16T17:12:06 exactly.... 2008-09-16T17:12:16 i work in a similar environment. 2008-09-16T17:12:33 i am generally working on setting up a test instance... 2008-09-16T17:12:54 i've downloaded the vmware image but vmware player wants me to reboot my machine... i might do that in a few days. 2008-09-16T17:13:13 i hate windows software always thinking i can just drop whatever i'm doing and reboot everytime i want some new software. 2008-09-16T17:13:54 Yeah; especially when usually it's only wanting to reboot so that some file registration that's listed in the registry can take effect (or some other trivial aspect of the installation) 2008-09-16T17:15:19 berick, well, if you can supply some answers without a fee, can you give me a ballpark on 'how much of a server' am i going to need? what units do you measure usage in? patrons? daily checkouts? collection size? 2008-09-16T17:17:16 FluffyCloud: for determining server size, all of those are important numbers. most important are probably transaction (circulation) counts, rough number of catalog searches, and size of collection (bibs and copies) 2008-09-16T17:21:10 perhaps the question i should be asking is the inverse, how much library can a single computer serve? at what point do you need to move to a cluster? 2008-09-16T17:31:12 FluffyCloud: The main "resource hog" is the Postgres server... If you get a good sized one of them, everything else is kind-of just gravy... 2008-09-16T17:31:27 what kind of institutions are you thinking about, in terms of items/circs? 2008-09-16T17:31:50 (if you have anything in mind, that is) 2008-09-16T17:36:59 A quad-core server with 16GB RAM could probably handle a few libraries of 20k items/20k circs per year... a number of factors will affect it (as also will the type of use) 2008-09-16T17:37:25 for example, a system that does little to no circ won't require much of anything... 2008-09-16T17:38:26 (which might be the case for a private/special library) 2008-09-16T17:47:31 *ponder*ponder* 2008-09-16T17:48:11 the case i have before me is the implementation of a school library system 2008-09-16T17:48:44 like public K12? 2008-09-16T17:49:10 public schools, 1 highschool, 2 middle schools, 5 elementary schools. 2008-09-16T17:49:38 what kind of internetworking between them? 2008-09-16T17:49:46 right now? none. 2008-09-16T17:50:01 but i'm good at that sort of thing. 2008-09-16T17:50:12 i can handle networks and infrastructure. 2008-09-16T17:50:17 do they share resources in any way? 2008-09-16T17:50:42 was just curious about the bandwidth available between them... I bet a good sized server would do it 2008-09-16T17:50:43 i don't believe they cross lend but i'll have to talk more with the individual staff once we get more involved. 2008-09-16T17:51:20 if they listen to my recomendation, they'll all have Verison FIOS business lines between them and i won't have to worry about the bandwidth. 2008-09-16T17:51:22 assuming you're talking about all them using one server that is... 2008-09-16T17:51:46 i'd like them to all use one server, that cuts down on maintenance dramaticly. 2008-09-16T17:54:10 *** lisppaste6 has quit IRC 2008-09-16T18:13:22 *** lisppaste6 has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T18:17:17 *** lisppaste6 has quit IRC 2008-09-16T18:17:32 *** lisppaste6 has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T18:20:37 *** lisppaste6 has quit IRC 2008-09-16T18:20:53 *** lisppaste6 has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T18:23:47 *** kgs has quit IRC 2008-09-16T18:26:14 *** lisppaste6 has quit IRC 2008-09-16T18:26:29 *** lisppaste6 has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T18:37:58 *** dbs has quit IRC 2008-09-16T18:38:15 Apologies for the trouble today. The bot should stop bouncing in and out of your channel now. 2008-09-16T19:05:43 *** bag has quit IRC 2008-09-16T20:00:31 *** djfiander has joined #OpenILS-Evergreen 2008-09-16T21:22:20 *** grahamf has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T21:37:34 *** dbs has joined #openils-evergreen 2008-09-16T21:38:36 full house tonight 2008-09-16T21:43:18 full but quiet 2008-09-16T21:45:10 853 20 $81$av.$bno.$u20$vr$i(year)$j(month)$k(day)$wb$x0101$yow0102,0702,0802,1202 2008-09-16T21:45:42 LJ "is published 20 times a year, semi-monthly except monthly in January, July, August, and December" 2008-09-16T21:45:43 that's ... lovely 2008-09-16T21:45:56 I cheated and said it's semi-monthly with four omitted issues :) 2008-09-16T21:46:45 grahamf: where abouts are you in the dojo mind-meld? 2008-09-16T21:47:11 hey berick 2008-09-16T21:47:34 deep in the dojo morass :-) doing OK I think... 2008-09-16T21:48:03 I've got a question re: tags and subfields interface 2008-09-16T21:48:08 shoot 2008-09-16T21:49:11 I'm thinking the best interface for specifying multiple tags and subfields is an old-school one: just give a text-input for each, and allow multiple, (space/comma) separated entries 2008-09-16T21:49:33 maybe throw up a tool tip to help the inputter figure out what to do, and a little regex validator to make sure their input matches 2008-09-16T21:49:59 that sound okay to you? not very jazzy but seems the most efficient UI for the job 2008-09-16T21:50:09 grahamf: i think that'll be fine 2008-09-16T21:50:23 ok great 2008-09-16T21:50:35 this interface won't be heavily used once it's in place, so as long as it's clear what they need to do... i'm good with it 2008-09-16T21:50:48 efficiency is good 2008-09-16T21:51:01 yep, efficiency++ 2008-09-16T21:51:17 s/it's in place/the settings are in place/ 2008-09-16T21:51:20 Should "Bib/Auth Attribute Definitions" be a menu-button, like "Import Records", "Inspect Queue"? 2008-09-16T21:51:28 (a pair of menu buttons I guess)? 2008-09-16T21:52:17 grahamf: i was leaning in that direction. i could also see a top level Settings or Configuration option 2008-09-16T21:53:58 "Import Settings", maybe? i'm sure there will be other config needs for this interface 2008-09-16T21:54:12 berick: is there any particular language I should be doing the MFHD code in? I've just assumed that it was going to be a perl module that would get loaded by the ILS stuff 2008-09-16T21:54:21 Import settings sounds good. But "Bib" and "Authority" should have separate tables? 2008-09-16T21:54:22 of course, once that option is chosen, then what... maybe a tab container or some such 2008-09-16T21:54:44 djfiander: yes, your assumption is a good one 2008-09-16T21:54:52 *sigh* 2008-09-16T21:54:53 ;-) 2008-09-16T21:54:58 heh 2008-09-16T21:55:12 berick: ok, sounds good. 2008-09-16T21:55:13 sorry, djfiander 2008-09-16T21:55:27 grahamf: yes, separate tables 2008-09-16T21:55:49 berick: ok. -- it would be nice to have some data to display. I took a look at Vandelay.pm and was going to try my hand at adding some attr_definition method... 2008-09-16T21:55:50 berick: well, that's why I've already started working in Perl. Just wanted to make sure I was right. 2008-09-16T21:56:14 ...was going to copy an existing method, but can't find a "give me all the records in this table" one to steal from 2008-09-16T21:56:29 djfiander: right on 2008-09-16T21:56:36 grahamf: there should be one for attr defs... justa sec 2008-09-16T21:57:30 grahamf: see line 79 of vandelay.js 2008-09-16T21:57:54 we were able to take advantage of permaCRUD for the attr defs 2008-09-16T21:58:12 the trick with 'fetch all' is the id != null bit 2008-09-16T21:59:09 berick: ah, thank you. permaCRUD is my new friend. 2008-09-16T21:59:15 just popping in for a sec 2008-09-16T21:59:36 grahamf: well, you have miker_ to thank for permacrud 2008-09-16T21:59:41 you'll want to restrict "all the attr defs" to "all the attr defs owned by {foo}" I think 2008-09-16T21:59:56 hrm 2008-09-16T21:59:59 well, nevermind 2008-09-16T22:00:15 I'm thinking of vandelay... so that may be directed at berick ;) 2008-09-16T22:00:44 miker_: thank you for permacrud. ...we were talking about vandelay, though 2008-09-16T22:00:55 miker_: we're talking vandelay... but, i don't see an owner on vandelay.bib_attr_definition 2008-09-16T22:01:09 what am I thinking of then ... 2008-09-16T22:01:39 there are some ACQ attr def tables with owners 2008-09-16T22:02:00 ahh.. item_import_attr_definition 2008-09-16T22:02:35 which will also need an UI ... but works a little differently 2008-09-16T22:02:42 ahh 2008-09-16T22:02:53 not direct xpath 2008-09-16T22:03:08 if it's a single character, that is the subfield code 2008-09-16T22:03:56 cool, we've already found something else to put into the settings area ;) 2008-09-16T22:04:00 if it's more than one character, it's the predicate to the subfield selector part of (internally) constructed xpah 2008-09-16T22:05:01 * berick will probably need an example 2008-09-16T22:05:36 select * from vandelay.import_item_attr_definition; (on dev) 2008-09-16T22:06:23 and now i see 2008-09-16T22:06:27 sec, and I'll paste for all to see 2008-09-16T22:06:46 this will make the xpath mangling on the client end more interesting as well.. text() = "reference" 2008-09-16T22:07:34 *** djfiander has quit IRC 2008-09-16T22:07:46 heh... well, 2008-09-16T22:09:07 I was going to suggest that we have text inputs that take subfield codes, but explain advanced options in the docs 2008-09-16T22:09:29 you wouldn't parse it anyway, since it's just a predicate definition, not full xpath 2008-09-16T22:09:57 and it's very unlikely to actually be needed for anything but evergreen ;) 2008-09-16T22:10:26 good point 2008-09-16T22:10:36 http://rafb.net/p/qYsnHu83.html 2008-09-16T22:11:47 and .... biab 2008-09-16T22:44:35 hm, i'm getting my ass kicked in dojo 2008-09-16T22:45:18 I want to do something like this: ItemFileReadStore({data:bibAttrDefs}), but that doesn't seem to work quite right; I only get one line in my table, and the field-lookups all result in '?' for the cell values 2008-09-16T22:45:43 berick: you there? or anyone else with dojo grid wisdom? 2008-09-16T22:46:01 yep 2008-09-16T22:46:06 sec 2008-09-16T22:46:08 ok 2008-09-16T22:47:36 grahamf: you'll need turn the list of attr defs into a store-ready structure.. {data:vqbrad.toStoreData(bibAttrDefs)} 2008-09-16T22:48:28 berick: aha, thanks, that works! 2008-09-16T22:48:34 excellent 2008-09-16T22:50:29 * dbs imagines berick wiping sweat off of brow 2008-09-16T22:50:32 My table is populated. I've used your MarcXmlParser to write getters for the subfield and code columns, and they actually display correctly 2008-09-16T22:51:18 woohoo 2008-09-16T22:51:24 take that dojo 2008-09-16T22:51:41 * grahamf forgets a comma: take that, dojo! 2008-09-16T22:53:22 I think I'm going to call it a night. I'll work a bit more on the new-definition form tomorrow (I assume permacrud has an insert variant for vqbrad?) and then look at edits 2008-09-16T22:53:27 slow progress, but progress 2008-09-16T22:53:45 yep, IIR, it's 'create' 2008-09-16T22:54:11 any progress with dojo, especially early on, is a hard won ;) 2008-09-16T22:54:22 berick: super, thanks. -- when this looks not completely awful, what do you want me to do with it? 2008-09-16T22:54:59 I doubt it will be commit-worthy until you've had a good look 2008-09-16T22:55:09 grahamf: i'd like to take a look.. you can send me files/patches to test 2008-09-16T22:55:39 berick: perfect, will do 2008-09-16T22:55:43 cool 2008-09-16T22:56:16 ok folks, happy evening to all 2008-09-16T22:56:23 and don't forget the uwindsor faculty in your prayers tonight :-) 2008-09-16T22:57:00 *** grahamf has quit IRC 2008-09-16T23:50:47 *** mlasater_ has joined #OpenILS-Evergreen 2008-09-16T23:50:47 *** mlasater has quit IRC 2008-09-16T23:50:50 *** mlasater_ is now known as mlasater